James Bosma (00:26)
Welcome to this episode of Meet the Waymakers. Today's featured waymaker is Jon Ward. Jon is Vice President of Global Strategic Sales at Tobii. Jon is not a typical Meet the Waymakers guest, as he doesn't work directly in the field of signage and wayfinding, at least not every day. But he does sell eye-tracking technology, which, among other things, can help organizations see how wayfinding signage and navigation systems are actually experienced in the real world.

So welcome to the podcast, Jon.

Jon Ward (00:53)
Thank you very much, James. Thanks for having me.

James Bosma (00:55)
Yeah, so for our listeners, I met you at the Passenger Terminal World Conference in Amsterdam back in 2024. That's a worldwide conference and trade show for airports. You co-presented a case study there that you completed with Wesley Lang, a researcher on the operations team at Heathrow. So I really wanted to have you on the podcast to share how Tobii's eye-tracking technology can help wayfinding strategists better understand the customer journey and, in turn, improve the wayfinding experience for passengers.

So that's enough talking for me for now; let's hear from you. We start all of our guests off with a standard warm-up question: Can you tell me about an experience you've had when you were hopelessly lost?

Jon Ward (01:33)
Hopelessly lost? I'm assuming we mean in a wayfinding experience right now, right, not just in life in general? Okay, I've got one here. This maybe doesn't resonate to the quality of the signage at the time, but I spent four and a half years in the British Army and did a tour of service in Iraq. We found ourselves halfway between Iraq and Kuwait, and the road signs had all been stolen by this point to make shelter, housing, cattle grids, they're just not there anymore. And somebody forgot to charge their GPS system.

Without your GPS and without any signage, when all you can see for sort of 25 miles in every direction is open desert, it is a little bit worrying, especially when people maybe don't necessarily want you to be there. So, yeah, we had a very adventurous "which way should we go?" moment, and it was almost by a coin toss that we decided to go one way or the other. Turned out to be the right decision. But my word of warning is always charge your GPS, cell phone, or something like that if you get yourself caught in the middle of there. I don't think I can get any more lost than that one.

James Bosma (02:34)
I can't think of a more compelling life-and-death example of where wayfinding and signage matter, right?

Jon Ward (02:39)
Yeah, exactly. And, you know, for anybody that's an entrepreneur, there's a big need for more signage on the roads of Iraq and on the way to Kuwait at that point.

James Bosma (02:48)
So tell us more about Tobii. What does Tobii do, and how does this overlap with signage and wayfinding?

Jon Ward (02:54)
So Tobii is 25 years old. We were one of the pioneers within the eye-tracking space, and eye tracking is what you think it is: we measure where people look. The more honest term is probably gaze tracking, because we're looking at where you're focusing and where your attention is, but eye tracking is sort of the accepted term.

The reason why we were pioneers is that eye tracking as a technology has been around for about 200 years, but in the old days, it required somebody looking through a mirror picture, little slot, drawing where the eye movements kind of went. Fast-forward 100 to 150 years, and we're now at the point where a pair of glasses, a webcam, or a piece of technology can get you accurate within 0.4 to 0.5 of a degree. So that's about the width of your thumbnail in terms of accuracy of where we are. So, Tobii pioneered the commercial and academic use of eye tracking.

What we do is we supply technology to people like Sony, our equipment is in the PlayStation VR2, and other big brands that I can't mention the names of, but you can probably guess where we're going there. We then work in things like gaming so you can interact with the game, making it feel really natural. If you look around like you would do in a car simulator, it makes the experience much more real.

And then on the research side, we go anywhere from wayfinding to sports science, dyslexia research, psycholinguistics, and detecting autism before people are verbal. We can do that with eye movements and measurements. So it's really a semi-mainstream technology with its foundations in academia.

One of the key things here is that with a lot of research technologies or methodologies, you're often asking people to explain what they did or what they think they did. The brain is a very fallible piece of equipment. You remember what you want to remember, and people are easily primed. So the key thing for us is eye movements are very hard to fake, because your brain does things you don't even know you're doing, you eliminate the things you don't even think you saw.

So actually, if we can capture that and then use that as a review piece, you go, "Oh yeah, I don't remember seeing that," or "Oh yeah, I saw that, but I didn't think it was important." It captures all of the things that you do and the journeys from there.

For me, it has a very natural fit with wayfinding in that respect, because you're typically in an environment where the signage could be designed beautifully and looks great, but then you put in 15,000 people, background noise, one of the kids crying who needs the toilet, 20 minutes to go, you're hungry, and all these other bits and pieces. People can't verbalize that, but when you actually see them in the moment, it brings it all to life for you.

James Bosma (05:41)
Are there privacy concerns around people using glasses in a public setting for a study like this?

Jon Ward (05:46)
Of course, there are always concerns about privacy in this day and age. The eye-tracking technology is a pair of glasses with a forward-facing camera and cameras that capture the eyes, and we put it together to know where you're looking and what you're looking at.

We always ensure that any research we do is promoted, so there would be signage saying that people could be filming in that space and area. But then what we do is we apply privacy filters. So, face blurring, people blurring, full-body blurring, and so on to the recordings.

The data is stored locally; it's not going to a cloud or some unknown server. Then the data is processed, and privacy concerns are eliminated with filters like face blurring. We extend that to things like car registration plates, credit card details, any other PII (personally identifiable information) that's visible in the data, which is not what we're interested in for a wayfinding case.

James Bosma (06:54)
I'd love to hear more about the Heathrow project. How did your engagement with Heathrow come about? Did they approach you, or did you approach them? What department were you working with at the airport?

Jon Ward (07:04)
Heathrow has been a customer from the pre-COVID days. I think that the case study that we presented at the Passenger Terminal Expo was a post-COVID study. The first engagement we had with Heathrow was because somebody from a consumer goods market, somebody who worked for Procter & Gamble and used a lot of eye tracking in their shopper, store, and packaging research, moved across to Heathrow as one of their customer experience researchers.

At the time, they were talking about opening up the e-Gates (electronic gates) to other nationalities. Back in the day, it was just the EU when the UK was still in the EU. So for that one, we had a super engaging piece where we were looking at the signage that allowed you to filter between an e-Gate (which was either iris or passport back then) or speaking to a customs officer at the desk.

The original brief or question from Heathrow was, "We'll get some Heathrow staff to walk through it, and we'll see if they can see the signage." And we were like, "This doesn't work." I said, "For this to really work, you are opening the gates to Canada, the US, China, Taiwan, and Korea. You need somebody tired, fatigued, 15 hours into the flight, maybe who hit the minibar a little bit too much on the way over, or who is on the red-eye."

So the first piece of work we did with them was actually flying out and intercepting people before they got on flights overseas, and then getting them on board. We said, "When you come to this side, you'll see our team join them, then they’ll take you through the journey, and then we'll start working with you from there."

So these people had done the 10-, 12-, or 14-hour flight and check-in. They were caught by our team, went through the process, got all the way up to customs, and we measured it from there.

On the success of that after COVID, when everything came through, there was a bit of a mentality change in people in terms of how long they would wait in queues. We'd been in a sort of bubble for two years, and it was a question of how that bubble had changed human behavior.

So Heathrow really wanted to inspect whether that had changed the way all of their solutions worked, from transport to gate and from gate to transport on the way back, but also to understand whether the messaging was super clear and crisp in that space.

I have a phrase, I don't know whether this is true or not, I always say, "In an airport, nobody ever seems to take a sign down; you just put another sign up." What we found is that there were a lot of pieces of signage there that maybe weren't as accurate as they were when they were first put up. Airports like Terminal 5 are evolving all the time with concession stands, advertising, media, and pop-ups, and that's not always considered in the signage journey. So that came into play, and we did the Terminal 5 piece.

From the Terminal 5 piece, they then created ten design rules that Heathrow now lives by. Moving on from there, we did Terminal 2 and Terminal 3, applying the same methodology and rigor. If you've ever been to Heathrow, the terminals are very different in their age and construction. Terminal 2 has basically been rebuilt, Terminal 5 has been added to, and Terminal 3 is somewhere in between. It's the oldest now by build, but it's just been added to. Like I say, it seems that nobody ever takes anything down; we just put more things up.

The other thing that was important to Heathrow was operations and sustainability. If you don't need it, you don't need to maintain it. How much of the media was actually not functioning, unnecessary, and actually causing confusion?

James Bosma (10:43)
I know there's a concept in editing that every word must tell, so every word in a document needs to be there for a purpose, right? I think it's true for signage as well. If you just keep adding new signs, it creates a lot of visual noise. I'm sure you see that in your results.

Jon Ward (10:58)
Especially on some of the connection journeys at Heathrow. if you've been to Heathrow, the connections journey is in purple, and the Heathrow Express train to London Paddington is also in purple. For people that maybe are not literate in English, following a coloured sign causes some issues from that perspective.

I think we also noticed a problem with "breadcrumbing," as we sort of call it: how often do you refresh the person to make sure that they're on the same journey? That varied massively in the terminals due to their differences in age, planning, and experience.

There are some very easy and obvious takeaways. The other thing that we noticed a lot in passenger travel, especially coming from the arrivals gate to passport control, is this change of flow state. When you get off the plane, the first thing you want to do is almost sprint down the corridor. You just want to get off the plane; you pop out like the cork of a bottle out the door, and it's a bit of a free-for-all. Then you get into usually a wide atrium or corridor, and people slow down, start checking their phones and messages.

Then you get closer toward passport control, and you normally start funneling people into narrower corridors, so anxiety changes in the way people act. Then you pop out the other end.

One of the biggest things that we saw with that is when we were looking at the passport control documentation, they were presenting everything in that last bottleneck stage. Where actually, if they'd gone a little bit earlier when people were looking around on the travelator with a bit more time, they would have actually received the material, and it reduces the bottleneck. So that was really interesting.

On the other way through, you saw massive differences between people. Familiarity was one thing, but solo travelers compared to family travelers was obviously super different in terms of what they look for.

I love doing work in airports, and at the same time, I hate doing work in airports because they're intensely fascinating places. But there are obviously so many different variables and things going on, and they're quite a tiring environment to be in. So you can see how that could have a real effect on the traveler, especially with connecting flights and so on at the end of the day.

James Bosma (13:17)
Oh, it's fascinating. There are so many varied approaches to traveling depending on who you are, your culture, or your purpose for travel, right? Did you study both directions: arrivals and departures?

Jon Ward (13:28)
We did. And of course, this is where you get some of the challenges of doing research in an airport. Because if you look at the arrival journey, when you get off a plane and somebody stops you to say, "Hey, do you want to take part in market research?", you get an elbow in the face and they just barge past you because they just want to get out of the airport. So the recruitment side is challenging from that perspective.

We also make sure that we try to recruit people who are not familiar with the airport, because it's kind of pointless if they already know it. Terminal 5 is a great example: there you can arrive by coach, car, remote pods, or train. Even when you get to the terminal, you've still got three separate entrances. And depending on where you enter and what class you're traveling, even though it's all British Airways, you've still got a different journey.

So what we tend to do on the arrivals part, and we mirrored this when we did some work at Dubai Airport recently, is break the journey down into stages. We take people from the different transport elements into maybe check-in. Then we take people from check-in through to security (obviously we can't film things in security), catch them on the other side, and take a subsample of people who are going to go to the lounge, straight to the gate, or do a bit of retail therapy.

Then we capture them going from there to maybe a satellite gate. So it's quite complex, but it's important that those people are actually doing that journey. The kids are dragging their heels, they're hungry, they've got too many bags, or they're in business class and the flight is delayed. It has to be real travelers in the moment doing that part of the journey.

James Bosma (15:07)
I'm curious, did you find that there were variances in terms of how much people rely on signage? For me, when I'm arriving at an airport, I have two key priorities: toilet is first when I get off the plane, and second, finding the baggage carousel or security depending on international versus local travel. What I tend to do when I get off a plane is initially just follow the crowd, because I know 90% of the crowd is going to the same place I am, and then I'll start to look up at signs. Did you notice much variance in terms of how individuals approach finding their way?

Jon Ward (15:38)
I think there are a couple of personalities that we see here. One would definitely be the herd mentality, the follower. Then you get the "alpha travelers," whether they're business travelers or just on a mission. You see their pace increase, they're looking around for signs, and they go straightforward. It's funny because you see people during these sessions actually following them while checking signage and checking what they're doing.

We're also seeing people now checking floor maps on their phones and comparing those to what's around them. At the end of the day, we still see an incredibly strong reliance on physical signage. Once 300 people get off a plane, your internet and connection are slow, and there is a 1,000 people walking there, you're walking while being hustled and bustled.

I think on the departure side, a person who gets there two and a half to three hours early is quite chilled. They know what they're going to do; they're doing a bit of shopping. But we also see people pre-plan their next step. That was pretty common regardless of whether they were a casual traveler or business traveler. We tried to get all these demographics: families, solo travelers, and so on.

Pretty much everybody pre-planned where they were going to go. Before they went to the stores and food, if they knew they had to be at C gates, they checked where that was and worked out the timing. Nobody really took a chance and just went off thinking, "Oh, it's fine, I'll be okay later on."

One of the key messages that came out of Heathrow is where there is walking distance or transit time to get somewhere else, making sure that information was very common and visible was pretty critical. One of the things that people were quite critical of was the fact that they didn't know how long it took to get to Satellite C or Satellite B. Therefore, how could they plan?

We followed people to these different satellites, and they were like, "I'm here half an hour early, and there's no retail here or anything like that. Knowing it was only going to take me five minutes, I would have stayed back there."

Heathrow is still quite analog in most of its wayfinding, and we're going to start seeing this transition to digital wayfinding or more reactive and changeable pieces. One of the key things that came out of the study is people wanted more detail that was relevant to them, as opposed to just more general detail on the signage, such as live updates on when the next transit was appearing, time to transfer from here, or how busy security was.

In Heathrow Terminal 5, you might see a sign indicating a queue length, but people don't know what that translates to in time. People need things in bite-sized pieces because the majority of travelers are stressed.

One of the things that we did with the Heathrow project is the Task Load Index from NASA, which consists of six simple questions where people self-report their stress and emotional state.

James Bosma (19:00)

That’s a follow-up you did?

Jon Ward (19:02)

As part of the interview, we did a qualitative review. We showed them back the footage and went through, "Hey, what were you looking for here?" "I was looking for transit, the prayer room," or whatever it needed to be. But then we asked them to measure their emotional state, thinking about it themselves rather than using biometrics.

Most people said they were in a high cognitive state, a high stress level, and a high emotive state until they got next to the gate, or sometimes the people who got into the lounge were a bit more relaxed. But there was a higher level of anxiety, even for more established travelers. Reassurance throughout that whole journey is key. Your business travelers are just in the zone, but that's not the group having challenges.

James Bosma (19:51)
The study also notes that attention is implicit and subconscious. What were the most surprising findings when participants reviewed their own gaze recordings during those follow-up interviews?

Jon Ward (20:01)
This is one of the reasons why I love eye tracking so much, and I've been doing this now for 18 years, so I must be enjoying it if I'm still here smiling about it! One of the best things when you show somebody an eye-tracking video is when they say, "Oh my God, I don't even remember looking at that!" And then they go, "Oh yeah, because I know last time I came here, that took me the wrong way." So what they've done is mentally discarded it before even processing it.

That's the thing that we can capture with eye tracking: you looked at 15 things, you discarded 12 of those, and you made your decision based on these three. Then it's a case of: can we take those 12 signs down if they aren't needed, or was that information just not useful?

That's where we dig into it with them in the interview. We did what's called a retrospective interview. During the study, one of our researchers will be a few paces behind the person live-viewing what they're doing. They'll be flagging things where maybe the participant pauses, hesitates, or looks at a sign.

In Schiphol Airport, for example, if you're in the main hall and want to go to C gates, you can look up and there are like six signs that say "C Gates." And it's like, what's my best option? You're giving people too many choices; it's gone the other way around from directing the flow.

Attention in an airport is distracted as there is so much going on. You've got the signage (which is usually different colors), departure boards, retail, other people crossing paths, announcements, noise, trolleys coming around, and little buggies beeping to get out of the way. There's so much involuntary information. As human beings, we're attracted to shape, color, contrast, movement, and sharp edges. The more of those going on around you, the more your brain says, "Oh, I have to look at all these things."

The problem is you've just walked past the one big thing that you needed, which was the sign saying you should have turned left at that particular point.

So what we aimed to do with the Heathrow project was for them to remove a percentage of signage and simplify to amplify the message, making sure that sightlines were probably the most critical thing. You tend to have narrow walkways where you've got signage, but then you've got retail with a shiny object. You look back up, you've moved past it, and hopefully the next breadcrumb is easily visible. But what tends to happen is somebody sticks an advertising sign in front of that one, so you don't see it until you get past the advertisement. So staggering those points was super interesting.

But I think the most interesting finding was literally how much signage: advertising, health and safety, wayfinding, and so on, there is on a three-minute journey. On the arrival journey in Terminal 2 or Terminal 3, people are exposed to over 350 different pieces of signage on a walk that is 3.5 minutes long. A lot of it is advertising, which pays for things, so we get it. But at that point, what can you anticipate people to really take in?

When popping out of the plane, you've got a period where people are looking around on a travelator or walking, where they have a bit more time to look around. Even if you don't give them the final message there, you can start putting it into their head so that when they get to a decision point, they know column A or column B. You can reinforce that message early, but that was the bit across all terminals that Heathrow missed the most. That was the area where there was more advertising than wayfinding messaging.

Another point is, people were very color-focused, which is standard. We also took into consideration people with visual conditions. It's a little bit harder to recruit for that when you're just intercepting people on the day, but things like color blindness, glaucoma, and dyslexia were considered. On the first piece where we brought people in from Korea and China, there was obviously a language barrier as well.

Heathrow prioritized certain languages, which didn't tend to work very well because those people tended to be better at speaking English as a second language. The other territories that were lower traffic were the ones causing more problems, because they didn't necessarily speak English as a second language.

The minority was actually the majority of the problem. With Heathrow it was how many engagements with customer service agents could be reduced.

James Bosma (24:45)
You talked a bit there about how you factored in diversity, you mentioned different cultures and languages. What about things like age or ability? Someone in a wheelchair might experience an airport much differently just because of lines of sight.

Jon Ward (24:59)
We did a sample of around 108 for Terminal 5 and 120 or 115 people at other terminals, determined by how many individual journeys we needed to measure. We tried to look at people who weren't familiar with the airport, so a combination of leisure and business travelers, but not a London business person who flies out from Heathrow every week. We looked at age and demographics like family profiles versus solo travelers.

One thing we probably didn't touch on as much as we would like to is somebody in a wheelchair from an accessibility perspective, due to the nature of intercepting people rather than pre-recruiting. Also, depending on whether they are a solo traveler or with a companion, there's a huge difference. A solo traveler would likely request assisted travel for most of the journey. A traveler in a wheelchair with a companion would be an interesting journey to measure, but it's hard to recruit for on the spot.

James Bosma (26:02)
You mentioned a couple of takeaways from this study, including ten design rules that Heathrow now follows and advising them to reduce the amount of signage. Are there plans to go back and redo some of the same studies to measure the impact and improvements based on those changes?

Jon Ward (26:22)
Yes, we've got a roadmap with Heathrow to go back and measure those. The ten rules are actually public and were presented at the conference.

The best findings in research usually aren't rocket science; sometimes people just try to be a bit too clever, whereas getting back to basics is key. One of the biggest examples is an escalator in Terminal 2. There's big signage saying not to use the escalator and to use the two lifts there instead. But because the escalator signage is placed prior to the lift signage, people just go down the escalator and nobody uses the lifts. There's also a usability piece: with 1,000 people and a lift that holds 12, people think, "I'm going to be waiting, so why is there an escalator if I can't use it?"

Simplifying that and making signage more dynamic in the future where you can signal that the lifts or escalators are free allowing one dynamic sign to replace 3 or 4 pieces of analog signage.

Another takeaway from the Heathrow piece is that a lot of signage needed lightbulbs changed or needed constant cleaning. When people were traveling later in the evening, they weren't seeing the signage over distances.

Looking at the long-term future, Heathrow will move toward digital interactive signage, companion apps, and maybe AR. But the key thing was: what can we take down to reduce confusion and operating costs, which also reduces the environmental footprint? The design rules stay in place with the ethos: don't just put another sign up without thinking about what else you can take down.

Things like typeface and color rendition were also addressed. In Terminal 5, there was signage for the Underground, transport connections, and the Heathrow Express. They had the Heathrow Express logo with an arrow, which is great if you know what the logo looks like, but most tourists don't. People were walking up and down looking for how to get to London Paddington because it was just a purple logo. They changed it to be clearer, which was a simple fix. Familiarity from the designer's side wasn't translated to the tourist's side.

People surprise you all the time; just because you've done something for 15 or 20 years doesn't mean you understand everybody. With the "Netflix generation," everything is on demand and faster. You used to wait for the next episode of a TV show, but now you can binge a whole season and skip adverts. How we dissect information has changed, and attention spans are getting shorter. People want content delivered differently, which comes down to linguistics and updating traditional, outdated terminology.

James Bosma (29:42)
Heathrow is a massive achievement. How are you applying those insights to other airports or entirely different built environments like healthcare, transit, or museums?

Jon Ward (30:00)
As I mentioned, we've worked with Dubai and completed a case study in Frankfurt around retail and transport links. Dubai focused on the arrivals wayfinding journey for business customers to make it even more frictionless.

In transit and railway stations, we've been instrumental with HS2 (High Speed 2 in the UK). For those mega-stations with huge retail environments and transit links, we worked in virtual reality environments during the prototype stage. It's a lot easier to change something in VR than in the real world, especially when a station won't be completed for another 5 or 6 years.

Museums are really interesting because heritage sites often want to guide you on a specific journey through the space, almost like IKEA. If the wayfinding isn't clear, visitors miss parts of the experience. We work with academic and commercial sites like the National Trust in the UK to ensure people experience the full story in order.

Shopping malls are another big area. Wayfinding can be used to drive attention to specific stores. Years ago, we did a project at Westfield Shopping Centre. The ceiling at Westfield features geometric shapes that project paths of natural sunlight onto the floor, creating a "yellow brick road" that subtly guides people toward stores without traditional signage.

We've worked on stations, museums, public spaces.

James Bosma (32:14)
Right, and common to all those sectors is that they are places of constant change, which offers continuous opportunities to improve.

Jon Ward (32:29)
Absolutely. We often hear customers say they did research ten years ago that proved their setup was fine, but consumer behavior has changed ten times since then.

We like the idea of using eye tracking every 2 or 3 years to check if people are still interacting with the environment as expected, or if signage is acting as a visual anchor. You simply give participants an objective like finding a specific restaurant and leave them to it without asking leading questions to see what they naturally use.

We also record audio, catching people mumbling to themselves or chatting. Tracking group dynamics like mom, dad, and the kids in a retail environment shows how different people view the exact same space simultaneously. This helps identify who the visual design should target.

James Bosma (34:16)
You must get some pretty interesting recordings of those conversations.

Jon Ward (34:25)
Yeah, we have very interesting conversations during playback when partners see what the other was looking at. Because the equipment is so non-invasive, people forget they are wearing the glasses after about 30 seconds. They focus on making decisions, so their behavior becomes natural and hard to fake.

Playing it back acts as a great visual memory aid. Participants realize they were looking for landmarks instead of signage, which helps us show clients real visual proof from 15 of their actual customers. While self-reported stress indexes are helpful, stress is subjective. When you're measuring something that's subconscious and sort of pre conscious, as well as being conscious when they make an actual decision, you can't really fake that and it's and it's sort of there and it's is captured in the moment. And that's the best thing for me.

James Bosma (36:09)
SignAgent's customer base includes design firms, fabricators, installers, and large built environments. How can people get in touch with Tobii if they're thinking about working with you?

Jon Ward (36:30)
The easiest way is through our website, www.tobii.com, via the contact form. We have multiple ways of working: some customers purchase the equipment and we train their team to run it, while others hire our dedicated research team (who ran the Heathrow project) to handle the heavy lifting. Using an intermediary is also seen as more impartial for the end client.

We also have thousands of partners worldwide to collaborate with locally. We're super flexible and happy to brainstorm ideas to measure cognitive workload, effort, and emotional response.

James Bosma (37:23)
What advice do you have for young people who might be interested in getting into your field?

Jon Ward (37:30)
Have an interest in human behavior and psychology. Whether looking at consumer psychology, wayfinding, human behavior, or sports science, you need to understand the human brain, drivers, and visual system. A background in psychology and a natural curiosity about what people do is great. If you're the person sitting at a coffee shop people-watching and coming up with stories about what someone is doing, those are the right traits. Be curious, get involved in psychology, and reach out, because we're always looking for good people.

James Bosma (38:21)
Thank you so much for joining us today, Jon. I've been wanting to do this interview for a while, so it's fun that we finally got a chance to do it. We end every episode by giving our guests the very last word and asking them to share a favorite traveler's blessing or well-wishes. Do you have something you could share with us today?

Jon Ward (38:36)
One of my mantras is: always be kind and be curious. If you're sitting on a plane, talk to somebody. The thing we're missing most now is real human connection. Talk to the person next to you, be kind, be curious, and always keep learning.